During a book signing event a couple of weeks ago, a gentleman named Don handed me his card and introduced himself as an official with the West Virginia Writers Association, representing the Eastern Panhandle–the slice of heaven where I now live. I have since joined that group, and plan to attend their annual meeting in June.
As a recent emigree to the Mountain State, I’m working hard to establish as many connections as I can as quickly as I can. Don told me that there’s a writing group in Charles Town (nearby city) that meets regularly and he suggested that I give it a try. I reached out to the nice lady who runs the group, and I was invited into the fold.
Not sure what to expect or what I was getting into, I went to the designated spot at the designated time and we were off and running. It’s a small group, and it’s dedicated to workshopping WIPs. (WsIP?) Among the members, the levels of enthusiasm are high but the command of the craft varies widely. About ten minutes in, I realized that I’d entered a potential minefield.
It’s not my group.
The lady who runs the meetings–we’ll call her Dorothy–has worked hard to wrangle participants from disparate backgrounds and abilities into what seems to be a cohesive group–of which I want merely to be a part. The last thing I want to do is steal anyone’s thunder. That said, I have the answers to many of the questions bandied about the members, especially with regard to the book business–stuff like copyright law. As the new guy to any group, my inclination is to sit quietly and get a feel for the room, but when people are guessing at answers, I feel an obligation to set things straight. I realize now that that’s a lot like stealing thunder.
Critique group etiquette is alien to me.
For a quarter of a century now, I have taught writing sessions and seminars in which I am the presumed authority. When those seminars have included workshop sessions, I save my input until everyone else has had their say, and then I express my agreement or disagreement with those opinions and then offer my own. I’m something of a blunt object when it comes to offering critique–never cruel but always direct. I point out what I like and dislike, and I give my reasons why.
The new group brings a different structure. First point out the good, and then lay out the critique smoothly and with light brush strokes. Listen as the writer explains what they meant to say, often couched in the tone of, “It’s all there, how could you not see it?” Apologize if the honest assessment has offended.
The phrase, “In my opinion”, must be stated aloud before a critique can be given.
“It’s only a first draft.”
When the criticism comes, an oft sought safe harbor lies in the act of pointing out that the sample people have dedicated time and effort to read and critique is only a first draft–the implication being that the writer could have done better if they’d cared to make the effort. I want to point out (but haven’t yet) that no, your submission is not a first draft. It is the final draft of the version that you chose to submit for input.
“I don’t care about ever getting published.”
Those were the words of one of the members of the group. She went on to explain that she expresses herself exactly as she likes, and is not all that concerned if it makes sense to others or if they like it. It hurts her feelings when she hears negative feedback, but has no intention of internalizing that feedback or making any changes. Being a writer is who she is, she says. It’s her entire purpose in life. I’m not getting in the middle of that one.
Soon it will be my turn.
If I have seemed a bit snarky in the above paragraphs, please find none in this one. I really do want to sink roots into the local writing community, and while I feel a bit like a fish on the shore with this new group, I enjoy the interaction. I will do my best to live by the rules. And among the rules: you’ve got to pay to play. If I’m going to critique others, then I must submit to critique myself. That’s one hundred percent fair. And it will feel really, really weird.
I will submit my best work on my work-in-progress, and I will receive blunt input from real readers–a live audience to what is usually a recorded performance. I will sit quietly and I will absorb what they have to say. I will learn some things, and maybe they will, too. Or maybe not.
What do you all think about critique groups? What works? What doesn’t? Is it helpful or harmful in a group to have a wide range of writing experience?
I am in an online group that has been going for several years. It has a moderator, a person who has done editing and teaching, and everyone in the group is more or less in the same boat in terms of craft–not beginners, wanting only to get better. And everyone pays attention to how best help the featured writer with a thorough critique. Great group. I’ve been in ones where the level of craft and diligence varied widely and none of those groups lasted. One dissolved into a shouting match and one had someone burst into tears almost every meeting. Good luck with your new group.
Some here will be surprised to learn that in the long-ago past, I facilitated a critique group. I even wrote an article titled “12 Ways to Make that Critique Group Work” (see https://harveystanbrough.com/pro-writers/12-ways-critique-group/). Skip down to “However, all writers are different.”
Today, um nope. I don’t allow even my own critical mind to mess with what my creative subconscious has wrought. Everyone has an opinion, but it’s only One opinion. I finally realized my job is to write the thing. The reader’s job is to decide whether and how good it is. I like my job better. 🙂
I’ve been in many – from great to toxic. You’re right, you can decide within 15 minutes if it’s for you or not.
I think it’s like playing tennis – you want to play with someone just a little better than you, so you can learn. But if they’re TOO much better, it’s boring for them, and frustrating for you.
And then there’s the whole personality thing.
Yeah, not easy to find a great group for you – and when you do, people come and go…
But IMO, you HAVE to have feedback, so no choice but to keep trying…
I’ve been in an online group (only 3 of us now) for over a decade. We’ve reached the point of pointing out flaws and glitches without the ‘sandwiching’ of good/flaws/good. We don’t get our feelings hurt. Our goal is to make the work the best it can be.
I was in an in-person group for several years in Florida. I was a total newbie, still learning the craft, so I got more than I gave, but I tried.
One thing I learned early on is that readers don’t read like writers.
Good luck with your group.
Never been part of a critique group. Maybe I’m too impatient. I have to finish a draft according to my own lights, then submit it to Mrs B, make changes according to her always spot’on notes, and finally get it out to trusted beta readers.
I can see the value of a critique group for a newbie, but of course it depends on the quality of the people. I have heard of critique groups with a sheriff who wants to run the town, and insists that his/her rules are inviolable.
John, there are as many variations in critique groups as there are Cadbury eggs (can you tell I went shopping yesterday?). I’ve started and participated in them for over 35 years. Obviously I’m a big fan of CGs.
They can be helpful in different ways to writers at different points in their progress. Early on, some people (a lot actually) write for therapy, some want to show off, some genuinely want to learn and improve.
Many need the accountability of a deadline (gotta submit xx pages by Tues.), which is a big benefit of CGs.
In more experienced groups, the focus is on craft and getting published. Egos are not as involved. They want to know what’s wrong and how to fix it, rather than praise (although compliments are always welcome).
This group is probably thrilled and starstruck to have you. You’ve achieved what they dream of. But, from your description, this doesn’t sound like they’re the group for you…unless you want to assume the mantle of leadership and mentor.
It’s a minefield, all right. Watch where you step.
That’s the thing, Debbie. I really don’t want to lead. More than anything, I suppose I want to hang out.
My husband and I belong to a couple of different writing groups. We’ve found they are a good way to get into the writing community, although the variety of personalities and the differences in experience, make them challenging.
I was interested in your title for this post, John. I had always understood that saying to mean one is stepping up to fill a void. Am I reading that right?
I wondered the same thing about the title, Kay, but was too afraid to ask! 🙂
Breach? Instead of breech? Maybe there’s a hidden meaning . . .
In this case, “breech” is a nod to the part of a firearm where the cartridge is set before it’s fired. It’s where all the pressure happens.
“It’s where all the pressure happens.” Thanks for clarifying.
I’m going to need a course in firearms just to keep up. 🙂
I knew there must be something I wasn’t getting.
👊
And I forgot to add that I did join a crit group once, but it wasn’t a good experience for me. I’m really a newbie, and was even more so back then, but the other 5 or so members were even less experienced than me.
As a void or gap, that would be spelled “breach”, though, correct? I think John’s use of “breech” (hind quarter, seat of pants)), is marvelous because it perfectly evokes his feelings right now, about his having to face a little writing group blowback! 😂
I’ve been in four critique groups over the years. The first one I co-founded while in college, and had a very disparate group of writers. One wrote romance, one was a retired H.S. English teacher writing literary fiction, and three of us wrote science fiction and/or fantasy. We didn’t have a good handle on critiquing.
The other three I was in all used the Clarion writers workshop model of critiquing, where the author whose work was being critiqued sat silent as the critiques were given, one after the other. They could ask questions afterwards, but were not to defend their work. When this worked, it worked well, but there were problems. Some people giving critiques were prone to venting on what they didn’t like in fiction, or even that they didn’t care for a particular sub-genre. Craft wasn’t discussed enough, and some focused exclusively on copy editing issues and had no insight on why a particular story might not have worked.
The last critique group I was in was the best, managing to largely avoid some of these pitfalls, and even being willing to tackle critiquing a single, and complete, novel submission in an evening. That group met once a month.
These days I use beta readers, which are invaluable to me. My current writers group, which is going on ten years, is a brainstorming and support writers group, with members occasionally providing beta reader feedback outside of meetings.
I’ve only been in one critique group, and still am. I really like it, for the following reasons.
1. We’re specifically Speculative Fiction. I feel that having a specific genre puts us all in similar mindspaces. We love magic and spaceships and all that, so we’re not giving each other useless advice. In other words, when we all tell one person he’s putting in too much information, he takes us seriously, and we can point out exactly when it’s too much for a SF reader because that’s who we are.
2. We’re online. I love this, because a. The critiquers have time to put their thoughts together in a constructive way, and b. the writer has time to sort through their emotions without embarrasing themselves. And because we can read each other’s feedback, we can build off each other. If one person says “I don’t like how the chapter ends” you can chime in with “I believe it’s specifically this that doesn’t work.” We’re not all starting from scratch.
3. And finally, we filter those who come in. New people have to read a specific code of conduct, outlining how to be kind and that they’re only expected to provide their opinion, nothing more. And then they must answer questions about their goals in the group, writing details, etc. You can tell just from how they write their answers what their attitude level is. Recently, we had someone try to join the group who “has no time for getting something for free that he already pays for.” (honestly, I don’t know what the person thought he was signing up for)
I think having a common these is helpful for everyone.
I think it’s often less than ideal for a participant to have more writing experience than most of the other members of a writing group. One ends up giving constant, constructive feedback (which can cause resentment), while receiving little useful criticism in return.
By the way, I enjoyed the pun in the headline this morning. It made me start off the morning by looking up “breach” vs. “breech”. I think “breech” perfectly evokes the notion of facing some potential writing group payback, right about now!
Kathryn, this is one of my biggest concerns in this group. I can’t say that I’m a better writer than the others in the group, but I certainly have many times more experience in the book biz. I’m still growing my comfort zone. The voice of experience can easily tip into a kind of perceived bullying and I deeply want to avoid that.
As a writer and teacher of writing and literature, I was God’s gift and hell on earth to a critique partner. I very rarely received much in return. It wasn’t really worth the trouble of dealing with the snowflakes who only wanted to hear positive things but wanted to be published, or the egomaniacs who insisted on being anointed for their dreck. Others wanted me as their private editor for EVERYTHING they’d ever written. Bleech. That is why I enjoy teaching the craft.
I do believe that critiquing others’ work is a very good learning experience for a writer. If you have to figure out where someone is going wrong, you are also figuring out your own process. That insight can really come in handy when you hit a bad spot in your current story.
From the anecdotes I’ve heard from friends, in-person critique groups are minefields of interpersonal drama, or they work very well until they don’t. Maybe you can find a partner or two to go private. Or come in occasionally to give a short seminar on a topic or a question session.
I created a series of critiquing checklists and critiquing ethics for people who asked for them. Since WordPress doesn’t like outside links, click on my name here, go to my writing blog, and click on the label “Critiquing.”
❖ What do you think about critique groups?
❦ For me, they are absolutely necessary. That’s where I get my beta readers. Weekly is more than 4X as good as monthly. It also keeps me writing steadily. I often write just to have something to present to the group. I’ve written 120,000 word novels that way, a week at a time. Participants have said they only show up to see what became of my MC, whom I usually left in peril. [Editing this novel was quite an experience, and almost turned me into a planner.]
❖ What works?
❦ Steady attendance. Limiting pieces to ~1200 or 1500 words. Lighter critiques for newcomers. Weekly meetings.
❖ What doesn’t?
❦ Politics, erotica, religion, and poetry. Lengthy critique of content instead of the writing. Toxic people. (They should be encouraged not to attend. My original workshop met monthly, with flyers sent out giving a map to the next meeting place. Problem people just didn’t get sent the flyer. Often they flake off when they don’t get the praise and adulation they’re looking for.)
❖ Is it helpful or harmful in a group to have a wide range of writing experience?
❦ If your group is not getting an influx of new people, your group is going to eventually disappear. I often send emails addressing certain aspects of writing to boost newcomers up a notch between meetings. If I find a helpful website, I send a link to all.
“I don’t care about ever getting published.”
Good grief. I don’t even know what to say about that. Writing is, at its essence, about wanting to connect and communicate. I mean, c’mon…what do you call sex with yourself?
I had a great critique group when I was in S. Florida but we were all published on some level so had a grasp on reality. The urge to be part of a community of writers is so strong, but this is a minefield. They could also surely learn so much from you, but not if everything you offer is answered with “Yeah, but…”
Good luck. 🙂 Keep us posted.
I have belonged (and still belong) to a critique group that’s been up and running for over 12 years now, having never missed a monthly meeting. We are all well-published, award-winning writers, so there’s room for honesty and what I consider to be pretty high-level learning from each other.
I’m kind of surprised your publishing credits didn’t invite a barrage or questions and actual solicitations for opinions and intel. A sort of “look, we have a real live writer here to help” scenario.
There was very little of that, actually. About the closest it came was when one of the others asked me to sign two books that she brought to the meeting.
Took me a while to get the image of gaping beginners staring, maybe refusing to believe it was really you….
I’m with Jim on this one. I’ve never done/been in a critique group. Maybe my ego’s too fragile. Then again, I prefer my criticism come from the people signing my checks.
And you made me laugh the other day when I read a story about something that happened in Venice, CA, and guess how I pronounced it in my head? 🙂
I meant get the image out of my head. It was that vivid. Still is.
I love the bit about Venice! So funny.
I’m a beginning writer that is part of a critique group. I’m the only member writing a thriller novel. Other members are writing essays, short stories and novels in different genres. I want to make helpful suggestions to the other members but that may not be the case.
Most of what I have learned about the craft of writing has come from TKZ Library, Masterclasses, craft books, Great Courses and reading. It is pretty much geared toward the thriller novel. I point out problems with transitions from one scene to the next, show-don’t-tell, structure, action verbs, deep POV, etc. These are tips that have been pointed out to me that I believe have improved my writing.
My question is, do these also apply to other genres? Am I really giving them advice that will help? I’d like to know your thoughts.
Yes, Chuck, good writing principles apply across all genres. Sounds as if you’re willing to put in the work to improve as well as help others.
As Debbie already posted, the principles of writing and effective storytelling are all universal. The only element of a thriller that is unique to the genre is the issue of pacing. No genre can afford to be slow or uninteresting, but thrillers have an obligation to scream.
I was a member of Sisters in Crime Central Jersey last century – and used to enjoy getting to the meetings early because there was a period of critique for those who were writing and wanted to participate – before the monthly meeting.
From that time I thank Kathleen (surname?) who kindly pointed out to me that the Irish say County Galway and not the other way around. The Central Jersey SiC group even provided my first edited publication – Crime Scene New Jersey, of which I have three copies left (may use as rewards if I’m ever famous). Somewhere I have the check for $8 that was my share of the profits, which I fully intend to frame.
The support and validation were critical at that early point. I have a warm memory of being with other women who self-identified as writers – and were serious about it. So writing was normal, something people did.
The rules were simple – keep it positive and don’t criticize per se – and there were published authors in the bunch who kindly answered questions (this was all last century and before Bezos). I wish some of the beginners who have so many questions on FB could have the experience, because it was ALSO an experience in learning to be your own best critic – and that no one else in the group quite understood (or should understand) exactly what YOU needed, so you would have to figure it out yourself. No one in self-publishing has an interest (nor a financial interest) in helping you – so don’t abuse the privilege of being able to ask, do your own due diligence, and learn to look things up because most beginner questions have been answered online and in books many times already.
But I haven’t had my writing critiqued by a group in decades, and the impulse faded long ago, probably because of illness and the effort it would take to participate. I have learned what I needed, manage my own ‘small ficition writing business,’ and know where to look when I don’t.
Enjoy your group – until it isn’t fun; then leave gracefully. Tell them your background, and what you know – and then wait to point others WHO ASK in the right direction.
Waiting to be asked is key. Thanks for mentioning that. I have limits and lines I won’t cross in terms of helping others, but I don’t lead with what those are. I just want to be helpful.
I’ve been part of a few crit groups and ran one for several years. I have no horror stories from crit groups but honestly at this point in my life, I’m not sure I’d join another crit group. Main reason is that everyone in the crit groups I was in wrote such widely different things. Poetry, women’s fiction, etc etc etc. I realize that you can still learn from hearing critiques outside your own genre, but for me personally, I never felt it moved me forward that much.
We did ask that a critiquer start with the good points, but we didn’t ask them to sugarcoat the ‘needs improvement’ areas–that’s a waste of time. In the crit groups I’ve been in, most are unpublished, with maybe 1 or 2 who had maybe pubbed a book or two. As others have noted in the comments, there always seemed to be attrition as people moved on. And it just takes up too much time running a crit group.
Plan for current manuscript I’m working on with a friend is for us to polish it as much as we can & give to a couple of beta readers. No crit groups for me for forseeable future.
❦ Some in our Tuesday group started to repeat reads, even tho the rules banned it. They’d pick up a few marks, then read the entire piece all over again. At the same time, one writer read his final chapter, and someone found a plot hole that reverberated all the way back to Chapter One. “Why are you telling me this NOW?” the writer lamented. Good question. The answer was, we were critiquing text, instead of the underlying material.
❦ We invited a few people to form a supplementary Thursday workshop, “Vision & Revision,” that had new rules, including order of presentation, working upwards from the bottom, roughly as follows:
Text, Action, Dialog – done last as an outside gamma read
Setting – third week
Character – second week
Theme, Story, Plot – first week
❦ Some continued to attend the Tuesday group in parallel, but Thursday’s gamma reads short-cutted the process greatly.
❦ One problem (?) was that writers were ready for publication after just a few weeks and didn’t need either group anymore, so attendance varied a lot. We admitted new members to keep attendance up. I created hand-outs and we discussed various topics, such as flashbacks, tension, cover design, marketing, talking-heads, prologues, wants vs needs, etc.
❦ We also created a coop blog. I think the concept was good, but the blog was no KillZone. Work was unevenly divided. We needed more people with better writing and WordPress editing skills.
https://8greatstorytellers.wordpress.com/blog/
Early on, I had such horrible experiences with critique groups that I scratched them off my list forever. It’s always the newbie writers that have the most “don’t you dare break this rule” type of advice. No, thank you.
I’m placing bets at how long you last at this place before you throw in the towel or they kick you out. The only critique group that ever worked for me is where we were all writing similar genres, and we were all hungry for publication, or had deadlines to meet. “Not writing for publication” is just a red flag of a lazy writer. Same with the “only a first draft” line. I would run far away.