John Ramsey Miller
Hold your ire, girls, I was just trying to get your attention. We can talk, now that the men have by now nodded and gone on to read something else. Here’s the thing, I don’t know why so few women win EDGAR and THRILLER Awards for mysteries and thrillers. I know Sisters In Crime are up at arms over the new PW list of top Ten Books or some such crap. When was the last time Sisters In Crime gave an award to a male-written novel? I used to belong to Sisters In Crime, and I paid dues faithfully, and was totally ignored by them. But I’m not upset. If PW had posted a top ten list with no male authors I would not have thought twice about it. But I get that I’m not part of the minority of authors.
Recently I helped judge the EDGARS, and when there were no females on the top five a woman judge (who has since passed away) told me, “I tried to find a book that was written by a female that I thought belonged in the top five and it just wasn’t in my stack.” She paused and added, “Well, we’ll catch hell from the usual suspects––none of whom have ever written a book worth seeing in the top 200––but remember, it’s not what’s between the legs that makes a great book, only what’s between the covers.” I stand behind our choices, and two of five of us were women authors, and we all agreed that the top five were indeed the top of our choices.
Some of my very favorite authors are women. I recently read Carla Buckley’s THE THINGS THAT KEEP US HERE, and it is one of my all time favorite books and it’s out in February. I could name twenty female authors who are every bit as talented as the top twenty male authors.
Do I think female authors are discriminated against by list judges? I hope we’re beyond that. I suggested that judges should be given novels in text format (I suggested downloaded to a reader like Kindle) with no cover art nor the name of the author so all submissions (once they were deemed to be valid entries ) to make it a fairer process. Invariably some judges would recognize some authors’ continuing characters. I do believe it’s hard not to give high grades to authors you are more familiar with, and have enjoyed reading more than others. Plus, if you dislike an author personally, it’s got to be hard to enjoy their work. Judges are merely human, after all.
I thought it was unfair (with the Edgars) to judge Cozies, Mysteries, and Thrillers side by side. This will never change because––as I was told––Cozy authors would take offense at being judged separately. Well, it isn’t politically correct to point out obvious differences in anything these days, but I think if there was a prize for Best Cozy as opposed to Best Non-Cozy, the cozy authors who won an Edgar would not complain. I was told that Cozy authors had their own awards (The Agatha) and I felt my concerns were dismissed. How can the same judge enjoy MC Beaton on the same level as Sandra Brown or Patricia Cornwell? How does having a kitten batting yarn on the cover compete with a bloody knife piercing a purse or one with a hard-boiled detective leaned against a street lamp? That’s just judging apples and marbles. Some of this is never discussed where it would count because everybody is so afraid of being seen as bigoted or discriminating or maybe honest. Try having any opinion that is not in the PC mainstream. I thought twice about writing on this subject, but then I decided, “what the hell do I have lo lose?”
So at the risk of being attacked, I will say that I believe some women have “genetic” or “gender roles imposed by society and therefore learned” strengths in writing that men lack, and that the reverse is also true where men are concerned. I see a deeper understanding of both male and female characters in novels written by female authors. I think in general that men write action and especially violence more convincingly than females for obvious reasons, but that said, some women can write both head-to-head with any male author.
So do I believe female authors being conspired against by the good-old-boy network? I won’t say it isn’t the case, but I’ve not seen it first hand. In fact I’ve seen just the opposite from the judges I’ve dealt with. I think judges go out of their way to be fair to every author. Can I explain why so many of the nomination lists are dominated by male authors? No, I can’t. Is it that the action/thriller/hard-boiled genre has been dominated historically by male authors due to life interest or our societal pressures and influences? Maybe that makes some kind of sense.
Do you think that until there are categories for “Best Novel Written By A Man,” and “Best Novel Written By A Woman,” there will never be a level playing field? But if “they” did so categorize authors’ works would there be a storm of protesters saying that the judges, in recognizing the separation, were saying that one group was superior, since pointing out any difference might bring forth the evils of comparison? Either we are all equal or we aren’t, right? Seems to me the playing field being level is in the eye of the beholder, and the winning team rarely complains about it.
This is quite the mine field, isn’t it? So does anybody else want to touch this one with a ten-foot pole?
I’ll jump in with the first comment. ITW had the same problem a few years ago, and PW also had it this year. The Washington Post has been nailed for not having any reviews of books by women.
I have mixed feelings on it. I do know there is some bias. I saw a review on Sue Grafton’s mystery series. In one of the recent books, she had a line about the character putting on makeup. The WP reviewer went nuts and spent a lenghty paragraph proclaiming something along the lines of “Is this series going to women?” It was a single line of referring to her makeup! About the same as sayihng that a man put on a shirt!
I also wanted to write an action-adventure treasure hunt thriller for women. A story where the heroine did typical hero things that were within reason for her gender–like what I was seeing in YA. The women I talked to loved the idea. Men hated it or didn’t know what to do with it. I even had a published male writer who was completely offended by the idea. And it was very difficult finding agents that might be interested–though I can’t say whether their lack of interest had to with the story itself or the subject. I can say that the topic of the story made it very difficult to find agents. Few women repped thriller at the time, and those who did, repped crime thriller.
But the reason I wanted to see a book like that was that I was disappointed in what was coming out. When I was growing up, I was reading action stories. The girl in the story–if there even was–was often relegated to standing against the wall acting helpless while the boys got the action. The girl reader got romances. Over time, women characters have worked their way in some areas. I was elated with Marion Zimmer Bradley’s Sword and Sorceress series because it put women in the roles men had traditionally gotten in fantasy stories. Now I can find wonderful young adult stories where the girls are girls, but they get adventures. The heroines use their heads to think and don’t need extra powers to be good at what they do. Romance might be in the story, but’s not a major component of the story.
But. I can’t find anything like that in the adult books, particularly thriller. I expected women writers to be able to fill this void. Instead I pick up a book a woman politician by a woman writer, thinking political intrigue, and get a romance novel. I pick up a book about a treasure hunt by a woman writer, and it’s about marital angst and very little treasure hunting. As a reader, I got frustrated because I got a romance novel or relationship novel, not an action novel about a smart, competent heroine solving the problems of the story. I pick up a book from a guy, and it’s about a treasure hunt. The woman character either acts like a guy, gets captured somewhere along the line, or doesn’t get a big role.
AS a reader, I got frustrated by the women writers because I would get a mystery or thriller that was a romance novel–not a thriller or mystery.
But I’m also frustrated by the publishers who are billing romance novels as thrillers and mysteries so that I’m not getting what I expect.
And I’m frustrated with readers who instantly assume that if a book is written by a woman, it must have a romance in it or can’t have anything remotely in the way of womens’ thinking. A number of years ago I mentioned to a guy that I was a writer. Didn’t say I wrote mystery or thriller. He actually sneered and said, “You’re a romance writer.” And I’ve had critiques by male writers who have been utterly outraged because I had things for women.
But I’m particularly frustrated for young women of today. They come out of YA reading these wonderful books where they’re well-represented, and then they get to the adult books. And it’s not the same.
I will readily admit I read more books by male authors than by females. For a while I refused openly to even buy female authors because I couldn’t find one hard-hitting enough for me.
But all that has changed as I have opened my mind and broadened my spectrum. Chelsea Cain. Louise Penny. Val McDermid. These are amazing authors who stand up beside any male in their field.
I am a pre-published writer. I look forward to butting heads with men for decades to come. I know I will have to fight this fight, against women like myself even.
Michele
SouthernCityMysteries
This is a subject I’ve been thinking about since I judged the EDGAR a couple of years ago, and I know other fellow bloggers are planning to give their takes on this. I am glad it is a subject that a majority of fiction authors have given consideration to, and the first two very thoughtful comments seem to confirm it. I think this is a subject we all need to consider, and I will say that each year more and more female authors are writing better and more exciting books and it is a trend I hope continues.
Suppose you are told “Here is a stack of one hundred books. Read them, and tell me which are your favorite ten.” You carefully read every book in the entire stack. You pick your favorite ten. You are told “Oh, look at that. Here are the author’s names. Observe that every book you picked was by a member of [insert gender].”
Do you:
A) Eliminate half your choices, replacing them with books by the other gender? Is this not a sexist reaction? Which half do you replace?
B) Stand by your choices? These were the best ten. Period. Makes no difference who wrote them.
C) Demand a totally different contest for each gender? Except in cases where gender truly makes a difference in average performance (ie running, jumping, throwing, having babies; NOT writing, drawing, knitting), isn’t running side-by-side contests in an effort to ensure gender equality actually sexist in its very nature?
For that matter, isn’t writing books “for women” sexist? And if it is, is it therefore wrong?
If you compare the speed or strength or body mass of the average man to that of the average woman, there will be obvious differences (oh, sit down! I said “average”). Therefore, when running competitions which depend on such characteristics, we run separate series.
I don’t believe that there is anything in the human brain in general, in the female brain, or in the male brain that prevents women from writing as well as men (nor the other way around). I believe, therefore, that the genders should compete (to the extent that writing is competition) side by side.
But just as it would be absurd to run a 100-meter dash side by side, and then declare the top ten to be the first five men and the first five women, so it is absurd to demand “equality” in the author gender of a “Top X Books” list.
If I listed my favorite authors, well over half of them would be female. Should I cut that down to exactly half, or am I simply a sexist pig? What about actors? Is there a man on Earth who can act half as well as Mila Jovovich? She is absolutely astonishing. She nails every single character she ever takes on, dead center through the very heart. Do I now need to go and find some man who can come sorta close to that, sorta kinda mosta the time, and declare him number two (bumping the three-way tie of Ellen Page, Juliette Lewis, and the non-Star Wars version of Natalie Portman), in order not to be perceived as a sexist pig?
You know what? Your labels are yours, even when you stick them on me, so I don’t care. Call me sexist.
Substitute the gender designation with race or disability and see how silly it is and it can go on forever until we have awards every possible niche. There are labels and separations because people won’t let them go. Society insists upon equality AND special treatment and wonder why we still have problems. And honestly, when it come down to these lists and awards who does it really serve (or care) except those who are on the list?
Great post. Oh, and I unsubscribed from SIC for the same reason. And I’m a woman. I was self-published at the time, and I’ve always wondered if that had something to do with it.
As for the genre problem, it’s sad that we’re still talking about this stuff, especially considering how many bras I had to burn in the 60s to feel adequate.
Today I feel adequate as a woman and a human being. And if I’ve learned one thing, it’s this: You can’t control what others say, think or do.
Meant to add that many of my writer friends are published with just initials becuz they’re worried if you think their women, you won’t buy their book. THAT is sad.
I think there’s a bigger issue here than the PW awards list–the real question is whether the way books are selected for review by major publications creates obstacles for women. I was surprised to learn that most major review sites skew heavily in favor of male mystery writers. (Ellery Queen Mystery Magazine, 81% male, Los Angeles Times 85% male, the Detroit Free Press 100% male.) And there’s no question that reviews impact the selection lists for awards. Paperback originals have the same problem in terms of getting reviews, whether written by women or men: PBOs seldom get reviewed, and therefore they seldom make the list of awards candidates. (Except when there’s a special PBO award category. We had a kerfuffle over that issue earlier this year).
I think SinC’s point is that reviewers select books to review based on their individual tastes, and therefore many women authors aren’t getting into the starting gate.
Regarding the comment about women using gender-neutral initials when publishing: It’s simply a business decision. We are very well aware that many reviewers and readers are put off by the idea of a woman writing manly-man fiction, and so we go gender-neutral to protect ourselves. And you’re right, Joylene: That is sad.
You can read the SinC blog post about this issue here.
What percentage of Thriller/ Mystery authors are female? That is a stat I haven’t seen and would like to have had for this blog. What percentage of published books, that is. The only bad review (not on Amazon) I received was from a female reviewer in my “then” hometown newspaper the Charlotte Observer, and it opened up, “Reading the opening chapter of THE LAST FAMILY, I felt as if I had walked into a mens locker room and kicked over a bucket of adjectives.”
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I would prefer to see different categories, like hard boiled detective, cozy mystery, thriller mystery, etc. As a writer of cozies, aka female amateur sleuth stories with a bit of humor, I feel my books would never have a chance at this award. Even RWA has different categories for its RITAs. Judges get an average of around six books to read and can pick three choices of preferred categories.
Panels with both men and women will be on their best behavior, but men do behave differently when they’re on their own. As a woman, I never see it of course, but my husband is a traitor to his sex and tells me what the menfolk say when we’re out of the room. For that reason, we need mixed panels for fairness.
Of course, I’ve also noted women being scrupulously fair, so much so that they judge women more harshly. I’ve never been an award judge, but I was on a job interview panel recently as the token girl, and I pulled myself up for judging the women more harshly (I think it was a subconscious thing on my part, wanting to be taken seriously by the men on the panel). But, we did decide on a woman in the end, so things can work out fairly, as long as we’re mindful of the pitfalls.
Nancy J. Cohen said…
I would prefer to see different categories, like hard boiled detective, cozy mystery, thriller mystery, etc.
I agree – and at this point I’m more a reader than a writer. These sub-genres are so different that I feel it is impossible to fairly include them all in one mass judging. I’m in process of writing a cozy (at least that’s what I think it is) and if it were being judged for an award, I would much prefer it to be judged against other cozies – not against the hard boiled or thriller books.
I’m leaving my two cents worth for my blog post on Monday:)
The only time I worry about the gender of a writer is when I am reviewing the book and need to find the correct pronoun. Gender doesn’t surprise me, and I’ve given up being surprised when it turns out to be “they” – as in the case of one of my oldest favorites, Emma Lathen.
Of course, when I read Linda’s post up yonder, I wondered two things, “when was this”, and “why are you asking all these people about the idea”? If it inspires you, do it. If not, who cares whether anyone else gets it.
And if you’re doing market research, there’s no such thing as an idea that everyone likes. If your story has a definable audience of a decent size that would love the story, then it’s a great idea. But can you pull it off?
only one way to know.
Start.
I had to laugh at your post, Lorel.
(1) If your hiring panel hadn’t chosen a woman, how would you know whether the process was fair?
(2) Just because men and women behave differently when together than separately – and if you are being honest, you know that women do that, too – what makes you believe that one or the other of the three diffferent ways of acting is more right or fair?
(3) Clearly, people’s reading preferences vary based upon their life experiences and their druthers. And awards are based upon preferences, nothing more. Sure, you can point to exactly why one hardboiled is better than another, meeting more of the hardboiled reader’s genre expectations, but any comparison between a hardboiled and a cozy might as well be a comparison between a bulldog and a dolphin. If it’s a dog show, it doesn’t matter how smart the dolphin is.
“If it’s a dog show, it doesn’t matter how smart the dolphin is.”
I am totally gonna steal that.